It is an unusual situation where people such as the Orams are being pursued for occupying GC property and yet very little is being said about the TCs who originally owned the property. When you think about it, for every Brit who now occupies a GC property there was at least one TC who owned it before them. If we accept that international law treats the original ownership as theft then the final owners are only guilty of receiving stolen goods, a much lesser crime. Surely any sensible court would try to find out the name of the actual “thief” and pursue them with far more force so they too can be brought to justice. You would expect this to be especially true for the south Cyprus government. Every TC who travels south has an address which can be checked in the south Nicosia Land Registry, surely this is not a difficult matter? I wonder if any TC official travelling internationally is occupying GC property?
The reason there does not seem to be any attempt to prosecute TCs is not because Cypriots are sticking together, it’s because the TC might simply point to their property in the south which GCs are occupying. Foreigners are easy targets as they have no counter challenge, not even those who own mythical “exchange” property. So, the answer to the question posed in the title of the article is a resounding NO! TCs are treated as if giving them GC property is understandable but Brits like the Orams are demonised for buying it from them. If anyone expects the Orams to win a counter-suit against the TCs who sold them the property, dream on? However, if the Orams lose their case, there should certainly be questions asked about whether certain nationalities are being discriminated against in relation to the property issue.
North Cyprus Free Press 
“Buying” disputed property on the island is, in effect, interfering in the Cyprus problem. Cypriots accepted that following the events of 1974 they had to have a roof over their heads so they “borrowed” each others property. Of course it is wrong for TCs to “sell” property that does not belong to them but why should a GC waste time and money going after the TC vendor when the object of litigation is occupied by an easier target. It’s up to the Brit to sue the TC who “sold” him the land if he wants justice.
The majority of foreign buyers who bought in the north did so for only one reason – because it was cheap. I have wanted to buy a flat in Cyprus for several years, I can easily afford one in the north but I know it’s very risky and wrong. I’ll wait for prices to stabilise in the ROC and buy one there.
The carpetbaggers that bought in the north displayed little sympathy for the real owners of the land they “bought”, they took a risk and it looks like they lost – hard luck!
To think there’s so much real news out there waiting to be gathered…
But in response to the above, anyone with even the most basic understanding realises that easy targets are the first to be chosen. Why should a GC – or international law for that matter – target a TC who has been affected by political circumstances? Better to go after the foreigners who can be had bang to rights either in Cyprus or the UK. After all, they ignored all the warnings about buying stolen property in an unrecognised territory so they should face the consequences.
Why on earth should the GC authorities be expected to do checks on TCs travelling south? For a start, 1974 was 35 years ago and the population has changed. And secondly most of the Turkish Cypriot population were required to change their names after 1974-75, but I don’t expect the average Brit ignoramus to know that. Does anyone really expect the TC authorities to cooperate with the GCs in providing information on individuals?
And how can the Oramses ever counter-sue the person who sold them Apostolides’ property? If they ever tried it they would very likely be arrested and deported on the orders of Turkey. After all, they would be undermining the very existence of the “TRNC”. They should take their medicine and be thankful that at least their case has discouraged all sensible people from buying dodgy property much the same as you would off the back of a lorry.
So CT, didn’t you once buy property in the north? TCs forced to change their names, that’s a new one on me. Any idea what Rauf Denktas’ real name was? The article spoke about determining whether TCs travelling south were living in GC property. Of course it would never happen. It’s a sort of “don’t go after the drug barons go for the users” attitude. I wonder, after the Orams judgement, whether some TCs will start, in south Cyprus courts, to sue GC refugees living in TC property. Of course it will never happen.
The medicine taking will be in the hands of the courts CT and somehow I don’t think you’re going to like their judgement.
Dominic ,
I have to say that I mostly agree with Campbell Thomas, however, I would like to add a few points. Please allow me to copy paste from other posts to save time.
To begin with there are two different cases. Criminal and civil.
Criminal cases are brought against those involved in the property business, people who mass develop and sell properties belonging (or built on land belonging) to GC in the north. The average TC does not belong in this category of people and to my knowledge only a very small number of people (which also includes TCs) were prosecuted based on this law.
The reason of this law is pretty straight forward. If developers are allowed to build thousands of homes and sell them (to anyone) then the solution becomes even more difficult. Please note that the property issue is already one of the most difficult problems to deal with. TC by developing land are trying to strengthen the status quo and with this law we are trying to weaken it. I have to admit that there are also financial motives as the north is competing with the south in the property business, however, this alone would not be enough. Having said that financial motives encouraged individuals to gather information and pass them on to the government for prosecution.
In the civil cases defendants are taken to court by the GC legal owners of the assets they illegally occupy.
What would be the point in suing any TC? Let’s say that I sue a TC called Oram-oglou for living in my house and the court rules that as the house is legally mine the Oram-oglous have to give it back and to also compensate me for all these years they occupied it. The Oram-oglous hear the judge, smile and then go back to the north. Then what? I will be holding a useless piece of paper which will only be good to use as toilette paper, a very expensive one indeed, unless you believe that the Oram-oglous will just pay me a visit one day with the keys of my house and a briefcase full of money.
On the other hand, if the defendant has assets in the EU the situation is totally different as we can apply to any EU court for executing the order issued by the Cypriot court. We can therefore go against his other assets should he fail to comply with the original judgment. This, I believe, explains why the vast majority of these court cases are against expats.
In the first paragraph of your article you talk about the Orams and you use words like “theft”, “crime” as well as state that “any sensible court would try to find out the name of the actual “thief” and pursue them with far more force so they too can be brought to justice”. I believe that you mixed civil and criminal cases and as a result what you say makes no sense. If I start civil proceedings against anyone no court, sensible or not, no police, in fact nobody would seek to punish anybody else apart from the defendant I took to court.
I have already explained why TC are not prosecuted, however, as you mention TCs properties in the south let me remind you of some facts.
In the north the occupier got GC properties, issued new ownership papers and passed them illegally to people. This is also a crime of war by the way. The Republic of Cyprus did not do that, TC are still the owners of their properties. GC refugees living in TC homes are treated as tenants, not as owners. Any TC is a citizen of the republic of Cyprus, can live here, work here, own and use his property here. Therefore please do not talk about “pointing out TC properties in the south”, unless you want to say that taking some TC property for infrastructure such as for airports (which was taken together with much more GC property) is the same as taking every single square meter of land in the north and giving it around, selling it and so on.
Having said that I do not believe that foreigners are demonized for nothing. They might be sued for practical reasons, nevertheless they are not demonized for nothing. I believe that they are more guilty than anyone else. I do believe that everybody else here is a victim of politics, everybody else was caught in a situation they did not actively chose to be in. Expats on the other hand saw dead meet and moved in like vultures. Therefore the comments I often make about lack of morals, poor ethics and so on.
Kyri,
You are right to point out that there are civil cases and criminal cases and we should not mix the two up.
Dominics article unfortunately does mix them a little but the fact of the matter is that there is a criminal law concerning the dealing in GC property in the North and it applies to everyone, not just ex-pats. To selectively apply this law because of what you refer to as “victims of politics” goes completely against the concept of Blind Justice. The law quite rightly does not recognise that any criminal is a “victim of politics”.
Vaughan,
Who said that the criminal law is selectively applied? Do you have any figures to justify your claims? Do you know any expat owner of one house who faced criminal prosecuation?
“for every Brit who now occupies a GC property there was at least one TC who owned it before them”
Dumb assumption #1: Change that to… “there was at least one TC who PRETENDED to own it before them” and you’ll see your fallacy!
“If we accept that international law treats the original ownership as theft…”
Dumb assumption #2: The original and ONLY legal ownership is that of the GC refugee and everything else is just a string of thefts punishable by law. Whether you’re the first squatter or the second squatter makes no difference in the seriousness of the crime.
“it’s because the TC might simply point to their property in the south which GCs are occupying.”
Dumb assumption #3: You should educate yourself about the “Turkish Cypriot properties Management Service” before writing on this issue…
http://www.moi.gov.cy/moi/citizenscharter/citizenscharter.nsf/dmltkprologue_en/dmltkprologue_en?OpenDocument
Your article should be renamed to…
“My pitiful attempt to justify my crime with dumb assumptions!”
…and you’ll be spot on! 😉
The Brits who have bought in N.C. did so in ‘good faith’.
There was a Kocan in the name of the Vendor so why would they
question his/her right to sell. Bear in mind that contrary to
popular opinion, an Estate Agent and an Advocate would be involved
in this process and you can be sure, neither of these ‘Professionals’ indicated to the Purchaser the inadvisability
of buying the property. The Kocan would have been issued by the
Land Registry Office a Governement Office, so please put the blame, if there must be blame, right where it belongs with the
Government.
My advice is if you already own a property here, be sure you do not own one anywhere in the E.U. not on paper anyway!
Yes property here is cheaper not because it is ‘stolen’
but it is priced relative to the area in which you purchase
and supply and demand.
Malcolm,
Maybe you don’t know any Turkish Cypriots well enough for them to have told you about the name changing after 74-75. It was a new start as far as the Turkish authorities were concerned. That’s why there are so many heroic “Volkan” style surnames as well as trade names e.g. Deler (driller), Teknikal (technician) etc. This is general Cyprus knowledge.
And yes, I do have property in north Cyprus which I did due diligence on before buying. In other words I checked the land title and did a search at the Tapu as well as RoC land registry. And just to be sure, spoke to the old guys at the coffee shops who lived in Kyrenia before 1974. When I found the guy who helped build the well for the TC who bought the place from a GC in 1957 I was convinced.
Polly, it’s totally unconvincing to say any expat in NC bought in “good faith” unless they were elderly and confused or otherwise special needs. We all know what the place is like. That came home to me when a lawyer offered to do the whole transaction for me AND the seller! I knew from the start I was on my own and ended up paying a notar a couple of hundred quid to do it all. Why people throw thousands at bent “advocates” who then rip them off is beyond me. You would also be aware that the estate agents, land registry etc etc are operating outside international law or recognition and so the status of your “investment” is measured accordingly.
Get Real,
Even though in principle we agree I would like to see less extreme and offensive approaches prevail in order to eventually solve the problem we have in our hands.
Polly,
I am sorry but I do not believe this “good faith” legal rubbish. Your claim can only mean one of the following 3 things:
1.You think we are stupid and you are trying to take us for a ride.
2.You are stupid and you were taken for a ride.
3.Both of the above.
I do not know which of the three is the answer, nevertheless I am not stupid.
This is why if I saw a “Kocan” issued by an authority which is not internationally recognized by anyone for a property which is situated in an area under military occupation I would question its validity. By the way, these are not my words, this is the internationally accepted legal status of the north.
If you add to the above some other warnings like lack of direct flights, no embassies, numerous articles in the press, basic knowledge that there is a thing called “the Cyprus Problem”, rumors about refugees, UN resolutions, warnings issued by most governments, the military presence of a foreign country, a green line and so on someone would have to be really stupid to buy in “good faith”.
Maybe greed blinded a few to ignore some concrete facts, nevertheless, buying in good faith is a ridiculous claim.
I agree with your comment “My advice is if you already own a property here, be sure you do not own one anywhere in the E.U. not on paper anyway” but let me add “and sell it as fast as you can because the legal owner might only be able to seek justice in the EU for now but this will not be the case forever!”.
No offense but your last argument is a bit naïve. Of course supply and demand regulates property prices but don’t you realize why in the north supply and demand result in lower property prices? Yes, properties are not cheaper because they are stolen but they are cheaper because there is not such a great demand for them, and this is the case because they are stolen, because they are in an area under military occupation, because most people care Polly.
PS…have a look at GetReals link as it gives some good answers regarding TC property in the south.
http://www.moi.gov.cy/moi/citizenscharter/citizenscharter.nsf/dmltkprologue_en/dmltkprologue_en?OpenDocument
I freely admit to being more mature, I have no special needs
except maybe 20/20 foresight and hindsight,this definitely would
have come in handy. In 2005 I was not so paranoid as I have
become since living here. 2005 being the time I did purchase
here in ‘good faith’ only to find the good faith was one sided.
I wish I was clever like you Campbell, alas I obviously am not.
Polly,
I’m not trying to be clever and don’t claim to be particularly smart, but surely 2005 in N Cyprus was not the first time ever you’d bought property? How could you ignore so many alarm bells? Don’t you read up on places where you are contemplating living? These days a Google check is all it takes. The internet wasn’t around when I started househunting and I think there were only about four estate agents in Kyrenia. But when you visited them it was clear there were only two types of title deed – Pre-74 Turkish of foreign and Post-74 TRNC title. What does the TRNC title mean, we asked. It means it belonged to a Greek Cypriot but now he has swopped it for a Turkish Cypriot place in the south, came the reply. It sounded just as unbelievable then as it does now to describe. No estate agent could provide the GCs’ signatures waiving their rights to their property. And that’s because it was a scam. We knew it, the estate agents knew it, they knew we knew etc etc. They would just smile in your face and say not to worry, the Greeks won’t be back, we have the Turkish army here. It actually left me and Mrs Pikey feeling a bit grubby that they thought we would be into that kind of thing.
I know I go on about this and have made myself a target for some of my more unsavoury countrymen, but the truth needs to be told and innocent people who don’t know the reality of the TRNC should be protected. Isn’t being British supposed to be about justice and fair play, rather than cashing in on the suffering of war victims and refugees?
To answer your question Campbell, yes I have bought in the UK
and always employed professionals to protect my interest when doing so. Forgive me if I, after employing someone who had
diplomas on the wall showing they had qualified in the U.K and
then did the necessary course in Turkey to be able to Practice
in the TRNC, gave me all details of what they would do for me in
writing (includind a Search) I didn’t then do the job myself as well.
As I said before I did not then and do not not now, have 20/20
hindsight and foresight. So shoot me, I have obviously lived
long past my sell by date.
Polly,
I have always known the term “selective truth”, you obviously suffer from “selective vision” because you could see well enough to notice the diplomas on the wall but allegedly not well enough to see everything else around you.
Polly, unfortunately it doesn’t matter what we thought when we bought property, the courts and not GCs who post here will decide whether or not we will have to pay compensation in the UK, in the case of the British. If you have no assets in the UK then the matter will become academic unless there is a Cyprus settlement or unless you decide to waste money fighting a claim against UK assets you do not own. I’m sure the courts will decide the same as the GC government has already decided in the case of TC refugees whose land has been taken over by GC refugees, wait until there is a settlement. In other words, relax it ain’t going to happen.
Polly,
As I have now seen your “possession is nine tenths of the law”, post on another thread I have serious doubts about your sincerity. I’ve given my real name up to now as I have nothing to hide, but now I’ll revert to Pikey, my alter ego on
Polly,
As I have now seen your “possession is nine tenths of the law”, post on another thread I have serious doubts about your sincerity. I’ve given my real name up to now as I have nothing to hide, but now I’ll revert to Pikey, my alter ego on CY44 where you and your ilk try to keep me banned because of the awkward truths I keep reminding you of.
So rather than posing as a confused old dear who didn’t know what she was doing, what are you really known as on CY44 among all those brave and upstanding paragons of virtue, honesty and good character?
Campbell/Pikey
Our G.C. friend advocates I sell as fast as I can. Tut tut
wouldnt that compound my ‘crime’ to knowingly sell ‘stolen
propety’ Malcolm, I know it aint gonna happpen.
Pikey I cannot get on CYPRUS 44 cos I have a free e mail
address so this is the only forum open to me.
Now, I had better take my tongue out of my cheek before it
gets stuck there.
Malcolm,
You may continue to twist events as much as you like, it is fine by me 🙂
Polly,
The crime has already been committed and you are perfectly aware of it. If you want to sit on it and wait please be my guest. At the end of day the legal owner might (MIGHT!!!) be happy with the compensation offered. On the other hand he might want his asset back ….. or even……
………one thing I agree with you about us, GC, is that we are greedy !!! Ok, you like limiting this to CG and I believe that all humans are but it does not change the fact. GC are greedy. I am greedy.
So what will all these greedy people do? They will all turn the compensation down … take you to court (even if they do not want the asset) … and get some quid off you in addition to the compensation stated in the settlement 🙂 How beautiful 🙂
Anyway, I know Polly that you all knew the truth despite what you write here or on any other bulletin board. What you write is merely a sad attempt to convince your own selves that you are not too bad. But deep down inside you all know the truth and you all know the punishment is near. It starts with “worrying” a bit, then more, then loosing your sleep and the real action will then follow 🙂
Kiri
Calm down, re read what I said and your will see nowhere do
I mention greed, yours or mine. Such a reaction was totally
uncalled for. Keep taking the tablets.
Polly,
“You” did not refer to you personally but to all of those expats who hate us because we are not happy with them living in our houses!!!
Regarding my pills I will continue taking them until I get my own back…and I will 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
I truly feel for you Kyry – all that anger
HAPPY NEW YEAR anyway
Accept your apology as you put it so nicely
Happy New Year
Happy new year to you too Polly 🙂